The Feasibility of Posting Precious Metals
Over the last few days I’ve done a Prize Delivery Follow Up for the Monster Raffle that we held back on October 1st. I had thought 2 months was enough time for the “Dust to Settle” so to speak and for the most part it was. However there are a couple of things that make me question whether it’s still actually feasible to run future Monster Raffles the same way we always have...
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There was one prize which was sent internationally and appears to have been lost in transit somewhere. With no parcel tracking it’s probably disappeared into the bowels of a Customs Agency somewhere and a second prize or compensation from the @ssg-community account will need to be sent. There were a couple of others who were so surprised by the exorbitant postage costs that they agreed to “Settle” for a higher value Crypto transfer and not post the metals at all. For what it's worth, I think this is very sensible.
I have picked up a few other comments about how Postal Services have generally become more expensive and less reliable to the point where paying to send a 1 oz piece of Silver internationally makes no sense. So I ask - Do we need to rethink how we compile and distribute our Monster Raffle Prizes?
One idea I had months ago was to try to line up the Monster Raffle with the Las Vegas Meetup in March. The idea being people could bring their metals and winners could collect prizes on the spot. Zero Postage for participants sounds ideal. However, not everyone can get to Las Vegas and for those who are IN Las Vegas do they really want to be spending precious time sitting on a Discord channel watching random numbers? If I was there I’d probably be out and about partying up! A follow up idea would be to hold the MR just BEFORE the Las Vegas meetup and then people take relevant prizes along to distribute. Food for thought…
Another idea I’ve had is that we could try and get people from similar regions to pool their prizes together. We could have a Canadian Prize, a West Coast US Prize, East Coast US, maybe a European one. This would be fewer but larger prizes that could be more cost effectively posted, tracked and insured internationally. It might also encourage Stackers to meet up locally and form little Hubs in their respective regions. I know the US and Canadian peoples have local meetups semi-regularly. Is THIS the way we could expand?
I’m up for suggestions. I’m personally pretty isolated here in Australia so still more likely to toss in some Crypto to bolster a prize pool from somewhere else. This could also be a really cool way for other geographically isolated members to take part cost-effectively. What do the people of SGS think? Let's get some ideas on the table!
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For someone like me, meeting up in Vegas would be next to impossible with kids. A regional prize would make more sense to reduce postage costs. I also like the alternative of just taking a prize in HBD or Hive.
If it's something I REALLY want, I'd be willing to pay the postage. At that point, the understanding should be that if it gets lost, it's the risk you take, and shipping is on the receiver since they know it's going to cost a bit for international shipping. That way, it doesn't discourage people from contributing because they think they'll have to pay for the international postage.
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That's a fair point. It might discourage people from buying tickets though if they find out their $1 ticket could turn into a $100 postage expense should they win?
This is a good point as well. The onus cannot be on the winner to pay postage. I hate that postage is so much.
Good point. Maybe a 50/50 split?
Or... what if it was a $ amount good for a gift card to a local/online bullion dealer of their choice?
Most of them are all e-gift cards these days anyway.
Sure, and I get what you are saying, I'd pay extra postage on some unique piece too. However I do think we'd sell less tickets if the cost was 1 HBD plus 50% postage depending on what you win from where.
Would you opt for an e-gift card to a bullion dealer local or online if you didn't want to pay the postage?
No. I love a good raffle, but I would just not likely buy a ticket to a raffle where there is the possibility of the prize to be substituted with a gift card, if that makes sense. It doesn't I know, it sounds stupid when I read it too xD
You know, the more I think about it the more I see @buggedout's point. I suppose if the prize was *this 2oz poured silver if you're in Europe or the equivalent value at kickasssilver.com anywhere else" that's cool.
Maybe we would even sell more tickets this way?
Yeah, that's about the best compromise I can think of that doesn't make it a complete logistics nightmare and still makes it fun for everyone to still buy raffle tickets.
It's tough anyway you look at it. The raffle is fun, maybe regional is the way to go with an option to take HBD instead.
Nah, no gift cards. That’s corny.
Then I guess the regional prize idea is probably the best compromise.
Meh. Postage is part of the deal.
Are you saying, for instance, that if I win a cool piece from, say, @welshstacker, then he see's the postage is too much, he can offer me crypto instead? No thanks on that.
I'm saying that did kind of happen, but both parties agreed. It's not ideal of course but you know, consenting adults and all that....
Of course that's fine. We did something like that with one of my NHL sweeps. I just don't know how you bake it into the deal before hand...
Let me clarify. I do think that if MR evolves into a Crypto raffle then it completely dies conceptually.
I think you are thinking too much. People know the risks of participating. Buyer beware. I don’t think we as individuals or a community need to bend over backwards ensuring people are ok with postage or get their items.
Participation involves some risk (like with every choice people make).
Also I am totally not monster raffling in Vegas. 😉
🥃🍸🥂🥂🥂 🎲 🎰 👯♀️
Thanks for commenting @dfinney
In response to your criticism - I am taking feedback from members, identifying issues and trying to get ahead of them before they become bigger issues. This is not overthinking, it is problem solving.
It's Ok for the North Americans to be dismissive of this because this really isn't a problem for you guys as the bulk of our big prize donators AND winners are from North America. I am thinking of the internationals and the more fringe members who maybe will just choose not to participate.
I don’t know. Between monster raffle and secret Santa I have mailed to Australia, the Netherlands, Sweden, Canada, the UK… so just because I am in North America doesn’t mean I am not effected by international mail. It’s a once or twice a year thing. And choosing to participate means dealing with those issues. You have always not participated because you haven’t wanted to burden other people with the postage to Australia.
I like @thedamus’s idea of 2oz minimum and tickets to those who donate.
I’m with u 💯
I agree with Dfin in spirit. However, i do have a hairbrained idea: next time we make the minimum prize 2 ounces, tix still cost 1hbd (or whatever) but everyone who donates receives back 25 tix to the draw — thus increasing their odds of winning, and perhaps also encouraging more people to fully participate.
Postage is what it is. And even tho it tooks months for my Maples from Greece to land, the fact they came from Greece made the prize all the more sweeter. And indeed, make me feel closer (platonically lol) to @trumpman. Anyway, just my two grams
🎄🤘🎅🤘🎄
I like the idea of getting tickets back!
Let's try this again...
!DHEDGE
I love the idea, but international postage is fraught with risks. I run an e-commerce business, and I've been involved with logistics one way or another for most of my working life.
Many countries will have an internal post service which allows bullion postage (here in the UK, Royal Mail Special Delivery will do it, if it's correctly declared and insured). Fedex, DHL, UPS and most other couriers specifically state that they won't carry precious metals internationally.
Assuming you can find a courier willing to ship and insure it, you'll have to get the paperwork spot-on, and there may be import duties and customs fees that need to be paid. It is possible that might put the price up to an unfeasible degree.
What you might want to investigate is reputable online gold dealers in each country, to see if they'll accept a payment from abroad with a delivery address (possibly stated as a gift address) in their country. That way, winners still get a prize in real metal, but with lower shipping costs and at far lower risk.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
Using local (to the winner) dealers as distributers is another idea to put in the mix definitely.
Though it does make the prizes less personal. Members usually like to hand pick pieces from their stack.
Also I think many members deliberately mis-label packages as medallions or collectibles to get around bullion postage restrictions, but to be fair - it usually isn't just bullion and they ARE collectible. If we try to do it "By the book" the MR probably also dies conceptually.
Really appreciate your suggestions and info.
Since you're in Australia, there's a limit to what I can offer that might be useful. International mail can be a dodgy proposition, particularly if you're just sending ONE item each to multiple countries.
Here in the States, we sometimes "workaround" through eBay, which has its own global shipping, and its own delivery connections a bit like Amazon. But I don't know if there's an Australian version of the eBay International Shipping. If there IS, you could "sell" the prizes to the winners for something like $1 and they pay eBay for shipping... and you get their internal tracking door to door.
Alternately, a mail forwarder? Again, that requires a certain volume of packages.
All in all, it's tricky. Been in the global sales biz since 1985, and in online sales internationally since 1996... and there are no secure and easy answers I have found.
=^..^=
Wow. That is a left field solution there. Its crazy enough that it might even work! We do have ebay in Australia but I am not experienced with it.
Might have to play with that idea a little....
The eBay thing only works if you have a legitimate transaction made on eBay (which can be for $1.00), and select "eBay International Shipping" as your carrier of choice for non-Australian destinations. It's awkward, but it works.
When we mail valuable old postage stamps (one of my lines) we typically just use International post registered which requires signatures at every point of transfer... but it doesn't help much if you're sending to a place with sketchy mail service, like certain parts of South America, Africa and some FSU republics.
Postal Service isn't what it used to be.
I usually factor in location unless the prize is unique/local or difficult to source in NA. To me, sending a prize is as same as a gift, I will have tracking and insurance anywhere.
I think the pooling people in regions is sensible but honestly we don't really do it this often so I really don't mind the postage
First thanks for all the effort you are putting into this!
Yes postal seems to become crappier and crappier. It seems like they are much slower and customs become more and more aggressive.
I think the regional think is what makes most sense but unfortunately our community isn't that big I think. Maybe try one as an experiment? Like one for Canada, it seems like we have many Canadians after all, and I would happily donate some hbd without expecting a prize
!DHEDGE
Cheers @trumpman - I have been thinking that maybe Europe is probably the spot to try first if we were going to try a regional pool. The North Americans seem unfazed and sending OUT of the US doesn't seem to be a problem. What are the postage rates like internally in the EU?
It's not much and no customs...except for uk cause of brexit. So that leaves just me, safissara and goldrooster so dunno how successful it would be. But hey, let's give it a try maybe there are more ! 😔😅
Trautenberk is from Czech Republic. I thought gwajnberg was Europe too, though now I check he's Canadian. Saffi is South Africa? I was sure there was another one or 2 Europeans about.
I'd say hold off for now. I'm just spitballing ideas and not even sure if another MR will happen.
Saffi is in Sweden. Czech Republic doesn’t allow coins in the mail at all according to something I think Trautenberk said… so he is always out.
That's one of the reasons why a regional prize idea could work to lower the barrier to entry for newer members and get past some of the regulation issues in various places. He could kick in even just a small amount to contribute to a combined European donation and we might end up with a sweet pot of silver getting posted out of somewhere like Greece on behalf of a few people.
I guess there's no harm in throwing an everyone tag on discord to ask how many euans would be interested to join the experiment !
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Why not stick to Bitcoin ?, it is digital gold after all :-)
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There was a story on the news the other day and they were talking about how precious metal businesses are trying to combat porch pirates and stuff like that. It was interesting how they are working with the shipping companies to help battle theft. Not exactly what you are talking about here, but similar. Unfortunately, I don't have many suggestions for you. I just paid a pretty hefty fee to have my secret santa stuff shipped out!
Very similar though. We had one prize go missing this time around and it could have been a porch pirate. We will probably never know.
Oh man, that sucks! People are A holes.
Yay! 🤗
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Tickets to those who donate makes a lot of sense. I saw some mentioning this in other comments…. Truth be told there is a war on metals among other alternatives to fiat. It’s just going to be harder as we go. Unfortunately this will be almost impossible in a few years. Sending silver overseas or rather across boarders. But I’d in future make sure everyone sends with tracking. I think it’s odd and quite foolish to send something without a tracking number. I’ve never heard of an option without tracking actually. When shipping internationally I mean. His is just basic common sense. Then on the two parties agreeing an alternative prize , that’s fine as u said, two consenting adults. But yea every participant should be given tracking number as part of the deal.
I don't see how tickets for those who donate solves anything. I see the the donation as an act of generosity. If we have to incentivize or even pay for that generosity then I think we've lost something.
I don’t think including the people paying 100% of the prize pool is that at all. Of course we need to incentivize the people paying for everything.
I guess we disagree. When I read many suggesting this I liked the idea a lot. I think it would sky rocket participation personally. If half the tickets went to those supporting prizes and half sold bit it’s higher number of participants I’d say that’s a win.
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But that aside my main thing would be tracking numbers must be provided. They are anyway for any kind of international shipping so making a rule sender just provide a tracking number would be a good first step to make sure nothing is ever lost without a tracking record. Stuff can still get lost but with proof the service provides replacement. And equal value can be sent to winner from sender.
The “free” tickets offsets the cost of postage. If people aren’t participating because of the postage they need to pay above their donation, having a chance to win silver with tickets is the “carrot”.
It can be costly sending internationally, but you know that going in. But whatever you think is best. Anywhere in the US to anywhere in the US is fairly reasonable under $5. It cost me $16 to send to Canada, which was the same as sending to Greece for me. I don’t have a good solution, but tracking is available on all packages from the US unless you are a cheap fuck and send it regular mail which chances are is never getting to it’s intended person.
$16 from US to Greece is remarkably cheap. If we were all able to do that then I wouldn't have made this post. What's the secret?
Use PayPal shipping.
Good tip. It seems to only be available for PayPal users in the US, but still good to know there is a cheap international option at least one way.
It’s a cross through affiliate with PayPal called Ship Station. I turned my buddy in the UK onto it. So it’s definitely not just a US thing. Google PayPal ShipStation it should come up for you.
It is a fact that when a person sends something that he likes to another person in another country, the tax that he incurs is very high and later the person has to face problems.